Season Two –  Katie West

Image credit: David Harrison

Katie West

Season 2 – Episode 5


Instagram handle @katiewularni

Fayen d’Evie
Next Wave Festival
Close Knit Podcast


Nick Breedon 0:00
Hi, I’m Nick Breedon

Kiera Brew Kurec 0:01
and I’m Kiera Brew Kurec.

Nick Breedon 0:03
And you’re listening to Pro Prac

Kiera Brew Kurec 0:04
A podcast where we explore the professional practice of artists and hear their stories.

Nick Breedon 0:09
Today in the studio, we have Katie West. Katie West is a Yindjibarndi woman with an interdisciplinary practice that explores the renewal of human connections with and within the natural environment. West was selected as the winner of the inaugural Dominick Mersch gallery / Victorian College of the Arts Award in 2017 with her master’s graduate exhibition piece, Muhlu Garwarrn / cool time hot time. In this ongoing work, the artist engages with natural dyeing processes, and text scores as a way to participate with the seasons. Through these repeated processes her work moves from memory to the realm of instruction or storytelling. Her installations grow with the seasons as quiet and powerful evocations of place. To begin with dyes her fabric using plant material and an open fire in Muhlu or cool time. Following this solar dyeing and sewing with the fabric and thread created in Muhlu becomes the focus in Garwarrn, or hot time. Text scores serve to both document this process and guide the process again in future seasons.

Kiera Brew Kurec 1:12
Thank you so much for joining us in the studio today Katie.

Katie West 1:15
Thanks for inviting me.

Kiera Brew Kurec 1:18
Would you mind starting off with sharing us the story of how you became an artist?

Katie West 1:23
Sure.I have to go back to the beginning, really. So I grew up on a farm, three hours north of Perth, near a little town called Badgingarra, on our wheat and sheep farm that then became a fish farm. So we farm silver perch fish in freshwater dams, was bought up by my adoptive grandparents. And also I lived with my next youngest, younger brother. Yeah, so really, life started out just knowing about the farm and the town of Badgingarra, and the next town, which was Jurian Bay. And so our lives were really tied up in the community going to tennis and being really involved in community theater, as well. Yeah, spent a lot of time at rehearsals for plays. And my Nan was really the leader of all of that. And then just a lot of time spent playing on the farm as my Granddad was working. So yeah, we had a lot of a lot of freedom. So we could kind of walk in any direction. As long as we let people know which direction we were going in, we could just go and play and make cubby houses and do all sorts of things. Yeah, so that was life until I was about 12. And then, a family friend suggested that I should go to school in Perth, and I auditioned for a performing arts high school in Fremantle, and got into a drama program. So I was doing drama as much as I would English and Maths and that was really, really fun. And, yeah, then after that, it actually got to a funny point in year 12, it ended on a like, not so good note, and I ended up not auditioning for WAAPA, which was kind of the plan. And, yeah, I got into art at ECU and did that for three and a half years. And yeah, had a really, really good time there. But I kind of went through that and then as I was developing what I actually wanted to think about in my work, I was finding that I wanted to deal with social issues, but really didn’t have the language to articulate what I was thinking about.

Kiera Brew Kurec 4:10
So when you are art school, what subject or what area were you studying? Were you looking at photography was that your major?

Katie West 4:18
it was a it was a structure where we could try different things and then become more specific, conceptually like to do with material. So yeah, I feel like that might have been a new thing they were trying with this Uni, but it was it was a good moment to be there, I think. But what what kind of happened I failed for one of my electives. I failed photography, which yet, as I told my story you will find is outrageous, that I would fail photography (laughter). But so I ended up having to go back just for one unit, and doing photographic printmaking. And it was It was amazing. Like, I totally aced the unit, and had a really great lecturer, Paul Allman, who just really, really nurtured me. And so what I was doing in that class was, I worked a lot from family photos, my Nan was like, really into photography. And we have just the biggest collection of family photos. But it’s also photos of like, lightning, wild flowers, just things that she was interested in having a go of. So I was drawing through all that. And it was interesting to me as well, because there were a lot of photos of my Mumm who was adopted by my Grandparents. So she was adopted in 69. And taken from her mother. So our family’s actually from Robben Island inland from Roebourne, which is in the Pilbara, in W.A so a lot further north. So really, I was kind of making sense of my family situation, but also kind of, as I was doing that, looking at those images alongside the images of indigenous people related to like political movements, so yeah, looking through old Australian history books from the 70s, and kind of collaging things together a little bit as well. So I was really at a point of, kind of connecting dots. Like at that time, I didn’t understand our family situation as being part of the stolen generations. Because I didn’t understand that people who were adopted were part of that history as well. So I, I kind of thought we were, our situation was kind of unusual, and not realizing that it was about social policies beyond our control. So as I was, I got the opportunity to really go into this stuff, and also get into a really beautiful flow with making work as well. So it really was like, having your source material. And then you just go for it and print variation after variation. And it was really, yeah, just a great satisfying experience in that way. But I guess after finishing art, and going deep into that stuff, I kind of felt like I didn’t really have the words to talk about that history. So I decided to go and study sociology. And that was a really good decision. Because I was able to make sense of, for myself how racism operates. I came across the word transgenerational trauma, which was like a revelation. And to understand why my Mum wasn’t there looking after me, she was an alcoholic and dealing with that. And to so to be able to understand how just the bigger picture and where our family fits into it.

Kiera Brew Kurec 8:52
Did you go straight from art school into studying sociology?

Katie West 8:57
Yeah. Both undergrad I dont know why (Laughter)

Kiera Brew Kurec 9:01
Thats a big study period. Were you also, while you were then studying were you making as well like, continually, or did you kind of put it on hold for a moment?

Katie West 9:14
Yeah, yeah, I was. I was living with a friend who was an artist as well when we would. So it was it was a nice kind of home environment, both working on our own things and yeah, so to be able to go to school, learn about all these concepts and then keep on going with my own little process with family photos. It was Yeah, it was. It worked really well.

Kiera Brew Kurec 9:41
So you’re making it this time as well. Were you exhibiting in any ARI’s or any spaces as well?

Katie West 9:49
I didn’t have really many opportunities to exhibit after uni. Basically one exhibition which was kind of organized by my partner at the time. And some just like our crew of people. And it was called Australia Does Not Exist was at Curb gallery. Which doesn’t exist anymore. And yeah, it was basically a little exhibition looking at Australian identity. It was really at a time when that whole Australian nationalism was arking up, and we were getting quite worried about it. Yeah, so I exhibited those prints there. And so prints on found fabric like doilies and tablecloths and things like that in a kind of a little collection on the wall. Yeah, so that was kind of it. And then, I guess a few years after that, a friend convinced me to apply for a studio with Art Source. And that was great. So I had a studio that I couldn’t just exist in and leave and then come back. And yeah, and then that also meant I was around people that would say, Oh, you should apply for this. Because I just, I just didn’t put myself out there in that way. And so Vanessa Russ, who’s now the director of the Berndt Museum, and Loretta Martella. They encouraged me to apply for for Next Wave festivals kickstart program. And, yeah, I got to do that program meet a lot of people here in Melbourne and from other parts of Australia. And it was such a it’s such a huge eye opener to how much I was missing out on being in Perth. I mean, and I don’t mean to talk down about Perth at all, because there is so much going on, but for, for the kind of the issues, I was dealing with it. Like I I really didn’t meet another artist of similar age doing the same sort of thing. There’s older artists that I could speak to, but not someone the same age, and I think that would have been it just would have been different, I think. Yeah, so I I got to meet artists dealing straight up with decolonization theory that, to know that that was actually going on. And yeah, to be connected to that community.

Kiera Brew Kurec 12:57
Cool. Did you relocate to Melbourne at that time as well?

Katie West 13:02
Yeah. I decided to relocate beginning of 2016. Yeah, it was kind of a thing of Okay, Perth isn’t quite working. There’s people here in Melbourne that it makes sense to be around. And so I applied to do a Master of Contemporary Art at VCA. And got in and that was my ticket over here,

Kiera Brew Kurec 13:30
yeah. And you just recently graduated from that Masters?

Katie West 13:34

Kiera Brew Kurec 13:34
Amazing. Congratulations.

Nick Breedon 13:35
Thank you.

I suppose I’m quite interested in, like, going from doing that work that was about photography and kind of image based. How did you how did you kind of step into doing more textile based artwork?

Katie West 13:54
It’s textile base, the textile base, I think it’s actually always been there. Because I was printing onto fabric and found fabric. Yeah, I had a really funny thing of not being able to print onto a blank surface. Like I couldn’t be a painter, because you start with often you start with a blank canvas. It was a strange little thing. So I would collect fabric and then that would be my surface. And then actually, the dyeing It came so I guess that tactility I’m really interested in fabric in general. And yeah, I think it I think it is about a domestic quality and familiarity. Yeah.

Nick Breedon 14:47
Like you’ve talked about, you know, moving across to Melbourne from Perth, which must have been a pretty big move for you. But Have there been any other really big challenges that you’ve had to sort of overcome to continue practice?

Katie West 15:00
Yeah, to, to be really honest, the biggest thing has been just grief. And then that turning into pretty chronic stress, actually. So, about eight years ago, my Mum passed away. But then, two and a half weeks later, my adoptive Nan passed away really suddenly. So this was why while I was studying sociology, actually, yeah, so it was just like a really huge rupture. And kind of having a family and then being part of, I think it’s like general white Australian culture of, you have the funeral, and then you just get on with it. So I was kind of, yeah, I guess, trying to deal with that grief, but also trying to just keep on going with work and my practice. And I think it was, it was so like, I mean, my practice was just mine for many years, until, you know, really the kickstart thing. So since doing kickstart, being part of Next Wave festival, and then suddenly people are watching, and getting asked to do more things, which is great. But then trying to figure out what is just for me, and then what I’m okayed, to share as well. And, yeah, it is a bit of a tussle, because I do feel like storytelling is really important. But then it’s also in being an artist, it can get caught up in other kind of agendas as well. I’ve been, I guess, thinking a bit about this in terms of when you have an art practice that is really about the process and therapy, but then often, you’re asked to do an exhibition, or if you get a particular lot of funding, it is about that final outcome. So yeah, like, honestly, there’s been a bit of a knot of trying to go, like, just sit with your practice, and make sure it’s doing what you need it to do. And kind of combating this brain, this habit that would just be going I have to produce this work for this exhibition.

Kiera Brew Kurec 17:56
Yeah think that’s actually a really interesting point that you bring up that. I guess there’s artists that fall into all different kinds of categories of why they make work or what their work speaks to. But for those who reference personal histories and family histories, or traumas that they’ve gone through, it can, that can be an incredibly taxing emotionally, while you’re in the process of making, and when you have outcomes that needed to be done by certain date, or to hit certain selection criteria that you have been selected for, it can be very hard to navigate. Or, you know, both fulfill those things, while also taking care of yourself, and making sure that your practice isn’t kind of being harmed by these exterior things as well. And yeah, and I think that also happens to a lot of people who have their own body appear in their practice and things like that, but it can be really hard to have those boundaries and, and also, yeah, be protective, so that they don’t get taken advantage of or that like, you are still able to what’s the word? Like? I guess, for want of a better word, like being, you know, the kind of art game or our business and still get those opportunities without having to sacrifice.

Katie West 19:24

Kiera Brew Kurec 19:25
Yeah, but that’s a very roundabout way of trying to say it. You mentioned stress. Have you found any practices or anything to kind of deal with, like, helping dissolve stress or like to deal with stress or to be able to maintain it so that you can keep having a healthy relationship with your practice?

Katie West 19:46
Yeah, I mean, I tend, I did try for a while to just push through it. And I yeah, it’s you can’t do that. I couldn’t do that anyway. And now what I’m really trying to do is really listen to my body. And so if I’m in a situation like I really feel any stress in between my shoulder blades, and it’s like, if that is, if that is happening, then this is a situation I need to reflect on and figure out why I’m reacting in this way, because it’s probably to do with something deeper and kind of discern, like, Can I see it for what it is? And just understand it’s a reaction because of this experience at this time. And then once you know, it’s that you can deal with it. Or is it a situation, actually, this is not something I want to do it all I’m gonna leave this situation. I’m so really trying to get better at doing that. Yeah, and even with the way I set up my working space too, like, I’ve come back from a holiday recently and gone to re jig workspace. And I’ve realized, I don’t want to be sitting at a desk, I’m better off, like, I got a little fold out table, and I got a cushion. And that’s much better to sit at to do and some admin, because I’m still kind of stretching out my body a bit. And I’m not getting all crumpled out that sort of thing, which seems really simple, or, like a bit mundane, but

Nick Breedon 21:47

Katie West 21:48
it’s that kind of detail you need to focus on.

Kiera Brew Kurec 21:51
I think that’s really, yeah, it’s a really incredible thing. And thinking about certain things like light and how much time you need to spend outside a day. And those kinds of things. I would never have thought about those things when I was like in art school like that. This is like a really important thing of a way to sustain my practice, like how much I have to go outside for a walk every day. Otherwise, I’m not going to be productive and things like that. And yeah stress as well, I, I can get very not in between my shoulders, but my neck. And it’s like, I’m definitely a few steps behind you though, because I need to actually take action when I feel it (Laughter)

Nick Breedon 22:38
I think it’s interesting when you move away from like, expecting your practice to be the thing that gives you your therapy or like is the thing that pushes you through, but it’s actually kind of like you actually need to do something else that helps you sustain your practice. It’s like I think, I think when I was sort of just starting out, I really expected art to be like the thing that would be the thing that gave me all my life. But it’s actually like I need to do all those other things to be able to continue to practice. It’s like a little bit of a

Katie West 23:10
holistic thing.

Nick Breedon 23:12

Kiera Brew Kurec 23:15
Do you mind sharing with us what a successful practice means to you.

Katie West 23:19
So I feel successful when in those moments where I get to connect with like minded or like spirited people. And so in particular, I’m thinking of, like connecting with Fayen d’Evie. And we just kind of clicked in the way we think and the way we want to work. And you know, in to go from going to not really knowing anyone thinking about the same thing or handling it in the same way to meeting someone who you do gel with. I think that’s what your practice is kind of about. Yeah, so being able to connect with others. When you get to do that. I think that’s a mark of success.

Kiera Brew Kurec 24:18
on that. I was just wondering if you wouldn’t mind speaking for a moment about your collaborative aspect of your practice? As a audience that seems like they kind of interweave within each other. And collaboration is something that’s very new to me. And I’m, I’m very interested in maybe how you came about creating these collaborations or how you in terms of professional practice aspect. how you go about sustaining these practices with another person as well?

Katie West 24:56
Yeah. As you were asking me that question, I’m reminded of earlier self that would was, would never, it would never occur to me to collaborate with another person. And I was actually really nervous when Fayen approached me to collaborate, because I just kind of had this dread about it like, oh, we’ll have a fight and it’ll be terrible. But no, we’re, I mean, I think I think we’re just good to each other. And, I mean, yeah, Fayen , just gives you space when you need it, and will keep you a push when you need it as well. Actually, when, when I was at my most stressed and like, kind of withdrawing, she was the one who would say, Come on, we should do this. And yeah, she’s really helped me keep things going. Yeah, but I do kind of feel like with collaboration, I’m kind of reminded of drama improvisation, like you just have to say, yes.

Nick Breedon 26:12
yes and!

Katie West 26:14
And yeah, it really is that you need to, you need to keep the flow happening. Like even if you don’t, you know, you might have a reaction like that’s a stupid idea (Laughter). But you got, you have to listen. And like you need to actually no idea is a stupid idea. I don’t actually think that when Fayen says things. But You give the space to each other, to articulate whatever is in your head, and you get to digest it, and then move through to the next development. Yeah, I think it’s that kind of simple.

Kiera Brew Kurec 26:59
Do you have certain roles that each of you play within the collaboration does, like one of you take over certain aspects of the practice or another do something else?

Katie West 27:11
Yeah, it. I mean, I probably feel like Fayen does more (Laughter). But Fayen is excellent at writing and just knows how to just do it quickly and well. So yeah, she does kind of take charge of that. And but I guess when in other situations, when I’ve stepped in, it’s been like doing the performance work when that comes up. I don’t know, it’s just working together. I don’t know if we really highlight specific roles.

Kiera Brew Kurec 27:58
I think it’s really nice though with that thing, it’s also it’s the Yes and but it’s also that thing of like, they can reflect to you what you’re actually really good at. And you, you might not see within yourself as a strength.

Katie West 28:13

Kiera Brew Kurec 28:14
That’s really nice. I’ve been collaborating with, obviously, Nick on the podcast, but also Hannah Raisin. And she’s definitely the cake maker out of us like she, she bakes and brings a cake to the table (Laughter). Which is great, because I can’t bake. But no, she she has other aspects as well. But then she will remind things with to me about my own practice, or about strengths that I have, which is really nice. And it’s it’s sometimes something that we don’t hear when we’re working solo, that, you know, like someone being like, oh, you’re really good at this can you look after that and be like, Oh, am I?

Nick Breedon 28:56
Yeah, yeah.

If you could give us a rundown of a week in the life of Katie West. We would love to hear what a typical day or week looks like for you.

Katie West 29:14
Well, I feel I don’t know that. I guess there are typical days and weeks, but I don’t know if the way I work is particularly coherent, or consistent. I mean, and yet, it actually has to do a lot with kind of going through phases of a lot of stress and the grief thing but yeah, being kind of on the other side of that stuff. I am kind of realizing that I’m actually going back and thinking about how I used to be when I was being creative when I was a kid, and how I used to work when I was in undergrad visual art, as well. So, when I was a kid, if I was doing a drawing, painting or whatever, I would just start it and not stop until it was done. So thinking about that as well, even if it took, like, hours, and hours, and hours and hours, and I just sat in the same position for a very long time. And also finding that I really have to understand what everything I have to do as a web, and how it all connects to each other. And then once I understand the web, plot through everything I need to do, and be really detailed about it. Otherwise, things slip through the net. And so yeah, kind of putting those systems in place. But to be honest, like there’s a lot of procrastinating and like getting sidetracked by housework and all of that, which, you know, is important. So, yeah, it’s it’s not it’s not a neat routine. It’s always a bit of a work in progress. Yeah.

Kiera Brew Kurec 31:32
Do you have a studio located inside your house or away from your house?

Katie West 31:39
It is in my house at the moment which has taken some, some getting used to. And, yeah, so it’s kind of, um, I mean, some some weeks, I just need to leave the house to work. So I’ll go to a library and for that thinking space and writing space admin stuff. And then other times, I really, do you want to be a homebody, and I use that space.

Nick Breedon 32:11
Do you think you prefer to have your studio at home? Or do you prefer working outside the home?

Katie West 32:18
I think I know, if, if I had the ideal studio, if it was in my backyard, that would be awesome. But at the moment, it’s just like, the biggest bedroom in the house. And it’s not not ideal for, for what I want to do. But I mean, at the moment in with my living circumstances, it’s some it’s back and forth. Yeah.

Nick Breedon 32:49
Do you do you find that use, you know, spend a portion of every day kind of in in the studio? Or is it sort of much more kind of random than that?

Katie West 32:59
It’s a it’s a bit more random than that. And I have to do it in Yeah. Sometimes life takes me to, like quite away from the art stuff. And then I’ll come back to it and kind of, yeah, try to immerse in it.

Nick Breedon 33:18
And do you find like, admin is something that gets in the way of your life?

Katie West 33:23
A little bit. I mean, I think I’m getting better at it. But it’s, yeah, actually, this is one of the reaction things I’m kind of trying to deal with. Can you write a bio, and then I go, oh, what do I do? But in actual fact, I’ve written many, and I got a heap of different versions on my computer to go back to. So it’s, yeah. I, yeah, it’s a it’s a funny thing of whenever you’re asked to do something suddenly and having a little, yeah.

Kiera Brew Kurec 34:00
Do you have any daily practices or anything that you do for either like creatively or for any, like, well being or anything like that?

Katie West 34:12
Yeah, I knit a bit. And I find that really useful because it’s just about your hands. And like listening to a podcast and knitting is really nice. And when I do get around to being in my garden, just weeding and getting into that flow and planting things and whatever, I really, really enjoy that. Yeah.

Nick Breedon 34:46
So what have been some of the more influential resources that have influenced your practice over the years?

Katie West 34:54
So I think number one would have to be Next Wave festival. That has been a massive game changer. Yeah, if if I didn’t have that opportunity, I probably wouldn’t have made the leap to put myself out there. And so that’s been, that’s been huge. Again, I guess my collaboration with Fayen as well, just calling that a resource doesn’t seem right. But you know, yeah. A source of support that is totally it.

Kiera Brew Kurec 35:35
Has there been any books or other kinds of resources that you have been turning to recently.

Katie West 35:42
And I, I go back to a podcast called Close Knit by Ani Lee. And it’s a textiles and fiber art, podcast. And it’s, it’s, it’s kind of like a happy place. It’s really warm and fuzzy. It’s just asking artists about their lives and their work, the process of setting up a business or the process of processing a particular fiber, all that ethics around where these things, particular materials come from, how to share them in the world. And, yeah, I find that super useful because it’s looking at creative practices, but it’s also not quite related to the contemporary art thing that I’m doing. And it really gets back to the heart of why do you go about making. I feel like, it’s, it’s always conversations that really feel rooted in this thing of making, is it just a human thing? And often people are talking about things like how they discovered knitting after some traumatic event, and this is what was a, this was a grounding thing to do. Yeah, it just really, really wholesome sort of stories.

Kiera Brew Kurec 37:25
Cool Is that an Australian based podcast?

Katie West 37:30
Well, kind of she, she’s American, but was living in Hobart I think for a while. And I think she started the podcast there. And now she’s back in the States. O

Kiera Brew Kurec 37:44
Yeah. Sounds good.

Nick Breedon 37:47
Um, in terms of the materials that you use in your work, do you Is there any resources like that you use to research?

Katie West 37:54
I feel like that is a whole project in itself. And I mean, I use Calico because, you know, it’s a rough cotton there’s a word for it in Yindjibarndi language, my mother’s language. And it feels relevant to our history. Yeah, but actually, in in the whole swing of trying to make work for shows I’ve been really bad when it comes to, like, I haven’t really been sticking to my own my guns with where I want to get my materials from. Kind of, I do feel like I need to work a bit more on insisting that I’m going to use found material. Like I do have a big bundle of Calico and I’m going to use that until it’s gone. But I’m, I feel like we’re at a point in this world that we really need to take drastic action in how we consume things. Which, which really, is at odds with the way the art world is still operating. So I’m, I’m not gonna beat myself up about this bunch of Calico but after it’s gone. Yeah. And and the silk as well. Silk is like horrific to use. But it’s, it’s a material that I knew how to use at the time. So I’ve been using it but yeah, I’m really wanting to do a research project basically into where these materials come from their history. I know they’re tangled up with colonial histories as well. So to understand that, and then begin to make decisions about how you do how you do work as a fiber artist, when you kind of I do feel like, we need to start from square one, where materials come from. Yeah.

Nick Breedon 40:30

Kiera Brew Kurec 40:32
That’s also a question I come to a lot in my practice about in terms of sustainability and ethics around, like, making a product and putting something out there in the world, like, as an art maker? And it’s like, yet, what is my role? And what is my responsibility? And how to minimize that. Yeah.

Katie West 40:58
And the pace of how you work too like churning something out in a few months. That’s not sustainable for many practices. Like, I mean, it’s been made, all of these processes have been made quicker. But and so you just do it without thinking, but you know.

Nick Breedon 41:20
but I mean, that using already, like pre prepared materials, it is outsourcing, like, a huge portion of the actual creative aspect of the work. Like my, my practice uses quite a lot of, or in the past use quite a lot of like, materials, which reference kind of art history. So and, you know, a lot of those materials have a really troubling, kind of, you know, backstories, like, you know, stone and different kinds of wood, and they’re all imported. And it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s a, it’s a mess, but it’s something definitely, I think, which will be more and more important as we go on.

Kiera Brew Kurec 41:57
So we might just finish on, if he could travel back in time, and tell younger Katie, any advice or maybe when you’re in high school, or just entering art school, If you had any advice about the art world.

Katie West 42:17
Yeah, um, really, I think the advice and I still kind of go back to it as well. Don’t hold yourself in. I think it would have been really useful for my younger self to hear that. Yeah, I mean, I’ve, I’m thinking in particular of, like, when other people at uni, were going to volunteer at PICA or AGWA. I just didn’t, because I didn’t think I had this thing like I wasn’t allowed to. So yeah, I think I would say you’re allowed to go for these opportunities. And also, you’re allowed to apply for grants and you should be able to feel you can do that at any stage of your practice. Like, any, any stage. Yeah, I do feel sometimes, like, what’s what’s valuable, in terms of what’s a valuable creative practice really does need to be broadened. Yeah.

Kiera Brew Kurec 43:32
Great. Thank you so much, Katie for coming in today and sharing this with us.

Katie West 43:38
No worries. It was a pleasure.

Nick Breedon 43:42
This episode is recorded on the sovereign Land of the Kulin nation, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land the Wurundjeri people and pay respects to elder’s past, present and emerging.

Kiera Brew Kurec 43:54
Thanks for listening to Pro Prac. You can listen to other episodes and subscribe to us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. You can stay up to date with what we’re up to on Instagram @propracpodcast or send us an email at